I am enjoying this month the “expected” way (as I digested below). However, this year, my thoughts kept
reflecting on a deeper meaning of the birth of the Son of God. Or at least,
from a different perspective…. I am wrestling with it for the first time…. It is
so new, that it is still spinning me out. I am still forming my understanding,
so it will show in the wishy-washyness of this post.
Merry Christmas everybody! Prayers, peace and wishes of blessings to all. May we be a blessing to others too! :-)
Christmas where it is known (and practised covertly/overtly) is celebrated at various levels
by almost all of mankind – spiritually, physically, and financially. Even people
who do not believe or do not understand its meaning gets caught up with at
least the fact that it is a time of giving/buying/receiving, festivities, parties, love
ones and foods.
I suggest if you don’t know the meaning of Christmas and why
it is celebrated every year that you start reading up on it (e.g. Who is Jesus
Christ and what is so important about his birthday? Is he Santa Claus? Why is
he a Saviour?). If you’d like, contact me and I could help you out (on my own
or through my contacts, confidentially if preferred).
Every year we are reminded that Christmas (and New
Year’s) is a period of “celebrations” – happy happy happy times…. A lot of
people are not naturally in this high state of “constant joy”, so this season
always brings forward and heightens many constant bouts of emotions such as stress, loneliness,
melancholy, thankfulness and gladness. We are also always highly reflective
during this season. No matter how much we have, we always become more aware of
what we don’t have – no matter how trivial. For example, we could be surrounded by
our loving family and there’s no other place you would rather be, but you crave
for a partner; or are missing someone you wish is next to you. Personally, I say it is great times to highlight who/what
are important to us! It is impossible for us to stop the feelings and the “basic truths” we fear
or try to hide from ourselves…. But, that and how I feel we should listen to it, is a topic to post for another day, hahahah! ;-)
Anyway, last night and this morning, in the moments I tried
to dedicate for praise, I could not stop feeling unsettled and frightened. My focus kept going past the birth of Jesus to the overall overwhelming power and
glory of God. To the God who reached out to us and sent His Son to the world to
reconcile us back to Him. The biiiiggggeeerrrr picture!... This time, when I (even just) glimpsed on the idea of the immeasurable presence of God, I felt myself... internally cowering... :-(. I became very conscious not of what I am
doing and what I did; but more of what I did not do and I’m not doing. I could
not turn away from the responsibility that comes with the forgiveness of sins
that I asked for and received. I saw how ill-equipped I am (and will always
be). Then I am reminded of our relationship and of His loving assurance. It was an awareness that rotated in my head but the answer/s were hard to pinpoint, especially because I didn't know how to phrase the question.
Always timely, God answered my confusions and request for
clarity. Out of the blue, a friend rang, whom picked me up in 15 minutes, and I attended
the Christmas service where the very topic discussed covered everything I was
wrestling with and “hit it right on the head”. Thank you God.
On my own I feel I’m just waffling. Disorganised... :-(.... Wow! After asking for help,
God again answered my prayer, and showed me how to present the thoughts, through
the wiser explanation of the pastor:
“The Birth of Jesus – A Time of Rejoicing or Terror?”
The celebration of Christmas is widely observed, even by
people not of Christian faith. The centrality of the Christmas message is often
lost by the people romanticising the event. People tend to narrow the focus of
Jesus’ birth to a single message – good news of great joy that will be for all
the people. If that is the case, then why did the shepherds experience
exceedingly great terror? (Luke 2:9c)
The appearance of God (or His representative) before people
always generates great stress in people, for they cannot be sure whether the
visitation will bring with it God’s condemnation or blessing. To most people,
the thought of judgment and condemnation is not welcome. Yet judgment of people
by God is certain, sudden, unexpected and devastating (Zephaniah 1:14 -15). It is also universal (2 Corinthians 5:10 ). But the good news brought by the angel
is that Jesus has been anointed by God to deliver people from their enemies
(especially sin). So the Christmas message is rightly both the cause for terror
and rejoicing.
People are able to experience the same joy and amazement
experienced by the shepherds only if
they’re ready to humble themselves to accept the message that the angel brings,
A litmus test for determining the degree
to which a person humbly accepts the angel’s message is shown by the degree to
which a person’s life is transformed. (1 Peter 1;13-15, MSG)
Merry Christmas everybody! Prayers, peace and wishes of blessings to all. May we be a blessing to others too! :-)
Well after having looked it up it turns out that people celebrate 'Christmas' because they think that a god-man was born to a virgin woman roughly 2 millennia ago via some supernatural process that a god caused, and that this god-man performed supernatural feats in the name of this god, ultimately allowing himself to be sacrificed to that god in substitutionary atonement for the sins of all mankind that were inherited from the first man and rib-woman that god created, because the rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake that eating the fruit from a particular magic tree would grant them moral knowledge that god was trying to keep from them. Apparently this god had forbidden them to eat from this magical tree before they had knowledge of right and wrong and then punished them for their wrongful disobedience. Luckily there was a loophole in his own moral system which allowed for the human sacrifice of his magically conceived son to grant humankind the atonement spoken about earlier, but only if these people accept the human sacrifice on their behalf, otherwise they are punished for all eternity. Also, he loves us all and is all forgiving.
ReplyDeleteFascinating stuff.
Personally I prefer the time off work which I get to spend with people I like, but each to their own I suppose.
That was a pretty good breakdown of it, much more than I expected, with the old and new testament brought into it too! :-) Well done!!
ReplyDeleteIt truly is fascinating. I decided to read up, opened my thoughts/heart (not just fit it into my ideology), to make up my own mind. The more I questioned, the more layers of understanding were revealed to me. It has been about two years since I started, and I am still very much engaged and curious! :-)
Enjoy the holidays. Thanks for sharing. :-)
I'd advise against opening your thoughts and/or heart up to the idea of sacrificing people to a god to atone for the alleged wrongdoing of others, at least as small talk on a first date anyway. Why, dare I ask, would you respect a god who endorses this sort of offering, let alone a god who gives rules to people that don't have an understanding of right and wrong and then punishes them for wrongdoing? Honestly, it seems like a rather dim witted and barbaric god to me.
ReplyDelete-It's Pete, sorry I thought I'd signed off on the last post, must have got chopped in a cut and paste :-S
Hiya Pete, (I guessed, lol, one of my 6 possibilities….)
ReplyDeleteI went into research mode to find out how I felt about this Jesus Christ, to decide once and for all - because he is so contentious, I questioned my (lack of?) faith, and I wanted to make up my own mind. Armed with everything I didn’t like nor understand (experiences, observations, values, thoughts, beliefs, practices, etc), I searched around for the best place for me to find it (I actively checked out several churches). I also decided to listen with as little judgment and prejudice as possible; opened my mind AND heart; AND to put the Jesus LIFESTYLE INTO PRACTICE…. The mocker seeks wisdom and finds none, but knowledge comes easily to the discerning.
A lot of examples you mentioned are in the Bible, but taken out of context. God does/did bring judgment, but he also gave us salvation. PLUS SO MUCH MORE IN BETWEEN that sentence alone!! And its not about the works/sacrifices/ceremonies – actually, that’s what Jesus removed/paid for.
It’s all in the Bible, which gives us God’s wisdom and guidance. Mankind, us, are at various levels of understanding and practice. We tend to twist it (or pick and choose) to our satisfaction or comfort level or comprehension. That’s why it is important to continue searching and opening and reflecting. And to have the discernment to see what is truly biblical and what is not. There were many issues I wrestled with, and I AM STILL wrestling with. Some I was/am so against! There were times I could have just walked out with the state of my opinions/understanding. I decided to dig my heels in, pray, waited and sought out GOOD counsel. At the moment, I see myself as a lifetime student.
It is a hard lifestyle. Quite “anti-cultural”. I AM VERY MUCH STRUGGLING with it, but mostly out of my own selfishness, fear and pride. Because it asks us and challenges us to live a full life of love, kindness, selflessness, gentleness, humility, goodness, faithfulness, peacefulness, joyfulness, self-control, patience, etc.
Will you take on the challenge? ;-)
No that I don't appreciate where your intentions are coming from but you need to understand that your claims are no better than the claims of any other countless faith systems, and if you expect people to 'accept the challenge' of adopting your chosen beliefs then you are going to have to offer more than us taking your word (or the word of others, including the book you seem so fond of) for it – especially if you make statements about how you 'went into research mode' with an 'open mind' but tried not to apply any 'judgement', and then talked about how knowledge comes easily to the 'discerning'. You're not even playing by your own rules; How could you possibly hope to 'discern' the truth of what was being told to you without evaluating the information using your 'judgement'?
ReplyDeleteSuch claims invite mockery from the discerning.
You also dodged the question about your gods penchant for human sacrifice by trying to tell me that I was taking it out of context, and that Christianity is 'not about … sacrifices' because that is what what 'Jesus paid for'. LOL - With his own death as an offering to god! Way to play down the central tenet of Christianity. I challenge you to give me a context that eliminates the crucifixion of Jesus as a human sacrifice to god to pay for the sins of other people, which were inherited from the first innocent human beings that god condemned. Why would you want anything to do with such a god?
Pete
*Not* that I don't appreciate where your intentions are coming from :-)
ReplyDeleteHi Pete,
ReplyDeleteRegarding “accepting the challenge” – my bad, I apologise I wasn’t clear. I didn’t mean for you to adopt my lifestyle choice. It wasn’t my intention. I meant if you are interested to learn, to go seek answers from people who are LIVING IT or actively trying to live it (this is a VERY important distinction), from inside the belief system.
Here’s my trying to explain God within the framework of your question.
1. “Why, dare I ask, would you respect a god who endorses this sort of offering [the idea of sacrificing people to a god to atone for the alleged wrongdoing of others], let alone a god who gives rules to people that don't have an understanding of right and wrong and then punishes them for wrongdoing? Honestly, it seems like a rather dim witted and barbaric god to me.”
-- Historically, mankind believes in justice and payment for wrongdoings committed. We understand what’s right and wrong. We refuse to abide by the rules, or like to get away with breaking them, or pretend we don’t know. Victims/We want retribution from criminals, asking the law to be involved, or taking the law into their own hands. We also perform our own judging of our actions and negotiate with ourselves how to pay for those wrongdoings. Mankind believes in payment for sins that includes fines/labour/imprisonment/human sacrifices/death penalty. Having justice served. It is shown in the Old and New Testament, and it is still so now.
Compare God to any father that passes judgment on his kids. No matter how bad His children are and no matter how much He has to discipline them, a Father forgives and loves them. A Father would sacrifice His own life to save His children. We, God’s children, continue to sin and negotiate with our conscience or use offerings to transfer guilt on to. We are focused on the tradition/practices/get-out-of-jail-free-cards/good works, but not the heart.
God loves us and wants to restore a relationship with us. For God so loved the world that He reached out to us and sent Jesus. Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit are one in Christian faith. Jesus is God in human form. Jesus lived on Earth experiencing life and temptations as a man, like you and me. He demonstrated to us the lifestyle we should live by. He also gave us guidance and wisdom. God’s children were confronted and did not want to let go of our sinful ways. We got angry and wanted Jesus to pay for the insults and for making us look like fools.
Instead of making us pay for our sins, for God so loved us He forgave us but still paid for our sins, in the method that mankind would understand/appreciate. Mankind needed to see justice served. God sacrificed Himself, as Jesus, to save His children. He made human practices of sacrifices and burnt offerings obsolete and worthless. No other sacrifice could be more precious than God Himself. God gave us freedom from guilt, addiction and fear. So we could feel free to know Him, to love and be loved, and to change. We know this by accepting that Jesus is the Son of God; saying sorry for our sins, thanking Jesus for dying on the cross for us and asking Him to come into our lives and fill us with the Holy Spirit.
2. "You also dodged the question about your gods penchant for human sacrifice by trying to tell me that I was taking it out of context, and that Christianity is 'not about … sacrifices' because that is what what 'Jesus paid for'. LOL - With his own death as an offering to god! Way to play down the central tenet of Christianity. I challenge you to give me a context that eliminates the crucifixion of Jesus as a human sacrifice to god to pay for the sins of other people, which were inherited from the first innocent human beings that god condemned. Why would you want anything to do with such a god?"
ReplyDelete-- I cannot eliminate the human form of Jesus, which went through life like us to show us the lifestyle we should adopt; and carried our sins to the cross. The God form of Jesus was the sacrifice on the cross. GOD sacrificed Himself. God died on the cross to pay for human sins. After that, ALL sins including first man’s (who knew he sinned), were forgiven.
I did some research and found this website which has answers to many questions you may have about Christianity - http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t015.html. This one ties in to your question of understanding right and wrong; and God and punishment. You could also submit your questions there. I’m still learning but if you need to discuss something you learned, feel free to call me.
Happy New Year and God bless :-).
I'm not especially interested in what specific Christian sects believe, although I have done my fair share of research I assure you. Instead I am interested in the truth of their claims, because I want to believe in as many true things as possible, and as few false things as possible. Aren't you also interested in believing true true things?
ReplyDeleteThe way we verify if things are likely to be true or not true is by looking to see if there is evidence in reality to back up the claims made about it, because if there is no evidence then there is no reason to support one claim over another, (like the claim that the Christian god made the world, versus the claim that the magical flying spaghetti monster created the world) and, if the evidence contradicts the claims then the claims are very likely to be false (like the claim that earth is flat, versus the evidence that it is not). The problem with asking Christians what they think is true, or what they think they know is true, is that to date they have not been able to provide any evidence to support their religious claims, and some of these claims are inconsistent with some of their other claims and therefore cannot both be true. Either they have evidence to back up their claims, or there is no reason to believe in them.
We have a word for believing in things which are not supported by evidence, and this word is 'faith'. If we have evidence for a god, then we would not need to have faith in one.
I find it truly bizarre and oddly primitive that you think a human sacrifices is an appropriate payment to a god for sins. If you were to visit a country in which the people painfully tortured and sacrificed an adult human being to satiate a god because that god was angry at the behaviour of other people, what would you think? If they told you that it was ok because this adult human being was actually the son of that god, and that this god was actually an all loving and all forgiving being, what would you make of that? And if they told you that the god, the human and a magical invisible force called the spirit are all the same being, what would you make of that?
Honestly curious.
Let's talk them over in our catchups, or call me! :-)
ReplyDeleteJust read all this. I am impressed by both of you - excellent language, good to read, well arranged argumentations.
ReplyDeleteBecause i am an Agnostic with Atheist tendencies, i share Pete's arguments. But, hey mate, show a little respect.
At the end of the day none of us has a clue, but we all seek for ansers. Some run for multiple science study to discuss in detail the appearance of time in context of material density and it's dependecy on Energie - other join a church and believe it's all run by god(s) - and some poor buggers like me just admit not to understand anything.
All of that is just a label. Essential is what we are doing with it.
I am under the impression that Rachelle wants to use here label in this blog to reflect on ourselfs, our limitations and questioning the value of our doing.
And because that's a good thing to do, her blog should have our respect and appreciation.
Cheers,
Ulrich
Disrespecting a person's belief is not the same thing as disrespecting that person, and many beliefs are indeed not worthy of respect; including the idea that a loving god condemns people to eternal punishment, and the idea that a forgiving god requires human sacrifice for the sins of others. If I had a friend who thought that teachers should be able to hit children in their care I would not respect their beliefs either, because their belief does not deserve respect and is misinformed.
DeleteAs for your claim that you accept that you don't understand anything, you need to recognize that If you actually didn't understand anything then you wouldn't even be able to discern that you didn't understand anything. You must have a criteria by which you assess your own understanding, and therefore the ideas of others if you are to comment of understanding at all.
You also need to recognize that not understanding the truth of a matter does not mean that you cannot eliminate ideas which cannot be true, such as self-contradictory ones. All-loving beings would not eternally punish those they are said to love. All-forgiving beings would not require conditions for forgiveness. All-knowing beings would not be ignorant of the fact that people are not responsible for any sin committed by their ancestors. Self contradictory ideas cannot be true.
It is sad to see Rachelle struggling with ideas that cannot be true, attempting all manner of psychological back flips to make sense of nonsense, and it is heart breaking to see her blaming her imagined inadequacy for her failure to make sense of this nonsense rather than accepting that it demonstrably does not make sense, and therefore cannot be true.
I will pay these beliefs no respect, because they lead to self destructive thinking and deserve no respect. Rachelle has all my respect for documenting her journey, and while she invites me to give her feedback, I will. There is no way to explain to someone their beliefs are flawed, without explaining to them that their beliefs are flawed, and if they are unwilling to even accept the possibility that their beliefs are wrong and take it as a personal affront to have them questioned then maybe their journey is over is before it has begun. People who are looking for truth must be ready to throw away lies, no matter how cherished they may be.
-Pete
@Pete: At the end of the day all ask ourselves the same question: What's the meaning of all this, what's the purpose, what am i doing here and where are the toilettes?
ReplyDeleteIt does not take much to recognise the very own existence as something tiny, weenee, smal in something big. It does not take much to do the next step and notice the irrelevance of the very own existence. From there its not far to feel lost, of no value, forgotten.
The point is how to deal with that. Religions are one possible course for people to find themselves at least somehow special, not lost but found. If that helps, it all cool to me.
Essential in that context is to tolerate and accept the ideas /believes / understanding / faith of others.
I very personal am happy to fight with my last breath for the freedom of others to believe the exact opposite of what i believe myself. That includes of course fighting all those too which try to force others to believe something.
That' why i am fine with spirutual & religious but feel very uncomfortable with "the word" (blindly following teachers, the bible, the Koran etc). Questening believes, faith, knowledge and yourself is essential to progress and become better - that excludes following "the word" in same way as it makes it mandatory to respect all who question themselves even if their point of view is very much different to ours.
There you are indeed disqualifing yourself by rejecting any respect for Rachelle's believes.
I know that's tricky - especially if your own concept of believes / understand seems to be so obviously more advanced - but on the other hand we already know and easily agree on where the toilettes are.
~Ulrich
Merry Christmas Siobe!
ReplyDeleteLove you lots! xx :-))
Delete